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Post by JohnJones on Jun 19, 2016 16:57:15 GMT
Deck Building Rules
Standard 60/15 card deck.
Legal Sets
Invasion block and up
B&R List
Modern B&R list + Minds desire
Ancient Den
Birthing Pod
Blazing Shoal
Bloodbraid Elf
Chrome Mox
Cloudpost
Dark Depths
Deathrite Shaman
Dig Through Time
Dread Return
Eye of Ugin
Glimpse of Nature
Great Furnace
Green Sun's Zenith
Hypergenesis
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Mental Misstep
Mind's Desire
Ponder
Preordain
Punishing Fire
Rite of Flame
Seat of the Synod
Second Sunrise
Seething Song
Sensei's Divining Top
Skullclamp
Splinter Twin
Stoneforge Mystic
Summer Bloom
Treasure Cruise
Tree of Tales
Umezawa's Jitte
Vault of Whispers
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Post by macdeath on Jun 25, 2016 23:16:19 GMT
I wanted to share a few of my concerns with the current banlist. First of all, dredge instantly get incredibly better in this format with the addition of Cabal Therapy, Ichorid, breakthrough, careful study,... Bridge from below should definitely be added to the banlist. Control decks and combo decks get significantly better with cards like Counterspell, Fact or Fiction, Accumulated knowledge, Entomb, Cabal Therapy, Cabal Ritual, Tendrils of Agony. But creature based deck barely get any boost, so probably cards like Deathrite Shaman, Bloodbraid Elf and even Birthing pod might be unbannable in the format?
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Post by commonopponent on Jun 26, 2016 17:19:42 GMT
I wanted to share a few of my concerns with the current banlist. First of all, dredge instantly get incredibly better in this format with the addition of Cabal Therapy, Ichorid, breakthrough, careful study,... Bridge from below should definitely be added to the banlist. Control decks and combo decks get significantly better with cards like Counterspell, Fact or Fiction, Accumulated knowledge, Entomb, Cabal Therapy, Cabal Ritual, Tendrils of Agony. But creature based deck barely get any boost, so probably cards like Deathrite Shaman, Bloodbraid Elf and even Birthing pod might be unbannable in the format? 1: by Incredibly Better it sounds like you mean "playable". If that's not something you want in the format that's fine, but lets call a spade a spade. banning bridge is saying "no dredge". 2: AK isn't in the format, and Counterspell isn't a huge upgrade from mana leak. this is still going to be a format dominated by the power creep creatures of modern sets. unbanning known degenrate cards like BBE and DRS will only make that more so. how about preordain, punish fire, second sunrise? cards that never should have appeared on the list to begin with because they were never oppressive, wotc just doesn't like spells. |
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Post by macdeath on Jun 26, 2016 20:04:17 GMT
I wanted to share a few of my concerns with the current banlist. First of all, dredge instantly get incredibly better in this format with the addition of Cabal Therapy, Ichorid, breakthrough, careful study,... Bridge from below should definitely be added to the banlist. Control decks and combo decks get significantly better with cards like Counterspell, Fact or Fiction, Accumulated knowledge, Entomb, Cabal Therapy, Cabal Ritual, Tendrils of Agony. But creature based deck barely get any boost, so probably cards like Deathrite Shaman, Bloodbraid Elf and even Birthing pod might be unbannable in the format? 1: by Incredibly Better it sounds like you mean "playable". If that's not something you want in the format that's fine, but lets call a spade a spade. banning bridge is saying "no dredge". 2: AK isn't in the format, and Counterspell isn't a huge upgrade from mana leak. this is still going to be a format dominated by the power creep creatures of modern sets. unbanning known degenrate cards like BBE and DRS will only make that more so. how about preordain, punish fire, second sunrise? cards that never should have appeared on the list to begin with because they were never oppressive, wotc just doesn't like spells. All fair points, I initially thought prophecy and apocalypse were legal for some reason. I could see the cards you mentioned come off, Eggs was never dominant in modern and heritage has more efficient disruption (Cabal Therapy, Counterspell) + graveyard decks being so powerful in the format means every sideboard should be prepared for graveyard shenanigans. Preordain seems totally fair for most decks in my opinion, although it does push spell decks like storm and Grixis Therapy (which seems already very good in this format). Punishing fire seems like a very awkward card to have banned I agree, what about jitte? One of the red rituals can probably be unbanned as well, it seems kind of weird to have those cards banned when Cabal Ritual is legal. Entomb is very powerful in this format, the Reanimator archetype will be something to watch for since it has access to 3 one mana spells that put a creature in the grave with Entomb, Careful Study and Faithless Looting (4 with the old cabal therapy myself) + 3 2 mana reanimation spells in Goryo's Vengeance, Stitch Together and Life//Death. It seems a little too easy to cheat a t2 Griselbrand into play (in a way that is hard to interact with for many decks). |
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Post by commonopponent on Jun 29, 2016 1:24:28 GMT
apoc is, prophecy isn't.
i think Masque block definitely Should be included, but that's a whole different discussion for another time.
i wouldn't be too worried about reanimator, or dredge for that matter. this format has access to all the most powerful graveyard hate printed recently that sees play in vintage, whereas the gy based decks don't have some of the premier pieces they enjoy in vintage.
honestly after seeing No Banned List Modern looking like a pretty dang balanced format in the recent attention it's been getting, i think it's probably safe to unban about half the non-creature spells on the list.
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Post by macdeath on Jun 29, 2016 4:36:31 GMT
Using vintage is a bad example seeing as most decks must dedicate half of their sideboard space to grave hate just to have a chance against dredge game 2 and 3. That's not very healthy in my opinion.
Also Reanimator decks in this format are consistent at going off on t2, so your grave hate might not matter and they have boarded in an answer for it anyway.
What about starting with a much smaller banlist and then banning any problem cards?
Watchlist
Mind's Desire
Entomb
Hypergenesis
Ponder
Rite of Flame
Counterbalance (not the Top)
Stoneforge Mystic
Birthing Pod
Splinter Twin
Blazing Shoal
Off color Artifact lands?
Banlist
Ancient Den
Cloudpost
Dark Depths
Dig Through Time
Dread Return
Eye of Ugin
Glimpse of Nature
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Mental Misstep
Seat of the Synod
Skullclamp
Treasure Cruise
Tree of Tales
Vault of Whispers
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Post by commonopponent on Jun 29, 2016 5:10:17 GMT
Using vintage is a bad example seeing as most decks must dedicate half of their sideboard space to grave hate just to have a chance against dredge game 2 and 3. That's not very healthy in my opinion. that's not really accurate in the format rn, though i fear it will shift back to that until they finally figure out they need to restrict workshops themselves (which is what dredge preys on) Also Reanimator decks in this format are consistent at going off on t2, so your grave hate might not matter and they have boarded in an answer for it anyway. grafdigger's cage, leyline of the void, spellbomb can all combat a t2 reanimate. even faerie maccabe if you're that worried about it. What about starting with a much smaller banlist and then banning any problem cards? i think that's the much better, and more interesting way to go. and i mean if you're trying to draw interest i would think the option to play under a non-arbitrary banned list would help with that. |
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Post by commonopponent on Jun 29, 2016 5:25:24 GMT
how i'd approach bans, fwiw:
Banned:
Blazing Shoal
BBE
DRS
Birthing Pod
JTMS
MM
GSZ
Mind's Desire
Splinter Twin
Skullclamp
Glimpse of Nature
Eye of Ugin
Rite of Flame
SDT
Stoneforge Mystic
Treasure Cruise
DTT
Ponder
Shouldn't be banned but would be anyway because of public perception:
Artifact Lands
Chrome Mox
Cloudpost
I'm on the fence:
Hypergenesis
Summerbloom
Unban:
Dark Depths
Dread Return
Preordain
Punishing Fire
Second Sunrise
Seething Song
Umezawa's Jitte
Sensie's Top i mostly support ban for play speed reasons. it being gone also leaves open the possibility of counterbalance without being miserably degenerate
summer bloom i'm simply unsure it's the right thing to hit. amulet of vigor feels like a card that will eventually cause trouble in other ways tbh.
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Post by macdeath on Jul 2, 2016 19:00:03 GMT
how i'd approach bans, fwiw: Banned: Blazing Shoal BBE DRS Birthing Pod JTMS MM GSZ Mind's Desire Splinter Twin Skullclamp Glimpse of Nature Eye of Ugin Rite of Flame SDT Stoneforge Mystic Treasure Cruise DTT Ponder Shouldn't be banned but would be anyway because of public perception: Artifact Lands Chrome Mox Cloudpost I'm on the fence: Hypergenesis Summerbloom Unban: Dark Depths Dread Return Preordain Punishing Fire Second Sunrise Seething Song Umezawa's Jitte Sensie's Top i mostly support ban for play speed reasons. it being gone also leaves open the possibility of counterbalance without being miserably degenerate summer bloom i'm simply unsure it's the right thing to hit. amulet of vigor feels like a card that will eventually cause trouble in other ways tbh. Problem with including Mask is that most of the good cards are extremely borderline (Gush, Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Rishadan Port, Misdirection, Daze, Divining Witch, Squee, Food Chain, Land Grant, free counterspells and discards ...) Your banlist seems way too reminiscent of modern's imo. This format is a lot better equipped to keep glass canon combos in check and the power level + resiliency of Dredge, storm and Reanimator are guaranteed to push the combo decks that are currently played in modern out of the metagame. Dread return should absolutely not be unbanned. It's really the only piece that the deck is currently missing in Heritage compared to it's eternal counterparts. Dread Return would make the deck way too opressive. Hyper genesis is not crazy in no banlist modern, it's super inconsistent and it has no manipulation or spells that cost less than 3 mana, also just looses to most disruption. Would get rolled over and is just worse than reanimator in Heritage I assume. Summer Bloom problematic for Heritage? Nah I don't think so. Not sure Amulet bloom would be playable in that format, you'd probably be ramping into Urborg + cabal coffers > Griselbrand/drain life. It's totally unwise to unban any of the lands since this format doesn't have better tools to deal with them than modern does. Chrome Mox is totally fine on the other hand, I don't think you really want to go all in and throw your cards away to get a mana advantage in grindy matchups. I don't understand why you want top to be banned, if anything counterbalance should be the card banned if the combination proves to be a problem. Time issues are a very bad excuse, and sensei reinforces skill and decision taking which is a good thing imo. This banlist should be free of modern's banlist biases. What do you guys think about this: Unbanned: Chrome Mox Deathrite Shaman Preordain Punishing Fire Second Sunrise Seething Song Sensei's Divining Top Umezawa's Jitte Summer Bloom Banlist: Ancient Den Birthing Pod Blazing Shoal Bloodbraid Elf Cloudpost Dark Depths Dig Through Time Dread Return Eye of Ugin Glimpse of Nature Great Furnace Green Sun's Zenith Hypergenesis Jace, the Mind Sculptor Mental Misstep Mind's Desire Ponder Rite of Flame Seat of the Synod Skullclamp Splinter Twin Stoneforge Mystic Treasure Cruise Tree of Tales Vault of Whispers |
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